Talk

[Shi Zhi Mi]

This is based on a max stat of 100 either by items or naturally.

Aid: The officer is skilled at aiding other units in battle, giving a greater than usual chance of assisting an ally.
- Level I: Officer is given an Int/2% chance of dousing fires, Command/2% chance of recovering confused troops, and Might/2% chance of recovering Panicked troops. Army being aided must be within 2 hexes from the officer’s army.
- Level II: Officer is given an Int/2+20% chance of dousing fires, Command/2+20% chance of recovering confused troops, and Might/2+10% chance of recovering Panicked troops. Army being aided must be within 2 hexes from the officer’s army.
- Level III: Officer is given an Int/2+40% chance of dousing fires, Command/2+40% chance of recovering confused troops, and Might/2+20% chance of recovering Panicked troops. Army being aided must be within 2 hexes from the officer’s army.

Tier 3 here gives officers a 90% chance to douse fires and recover confused troops. Do you want it to be that high? I think the best should be 80 or so. 90% is pretty much a guarantee unless the dice hate you.

Barrage(Ranged Armies Only): Officer is skilled at coordinating the armies' attacks to produce a continuous, withering fire that has a greater chance of penetrating the enemies defenses.
- Level 1: Officer receives a (Judgement/3)% chance of doing 20% extra damage during the attack.
- Level 2: Officer receives a ((Judgement/3) + 5)% chance of doing 35% extra damage during the attack.
- Level 3: Officer receives a ((Judgement/3) + 10)% chance of doing 50% extra damage during the attack.

I think barrage level 3 is too low. At 100 Judge it is a 77% chance of success. I'd bump it up to 80% or so.

Challenge: The officer is skilled at issuing insulting duel challenges to the officers of the opposing force that is under attack. Some are so skilled as to shame opposing officers into accepting duels against their better judgement.
- Level I: Officer has an (Attacker's Cha - Defender's Jud) + (Attacker's Might - Defender's Might)+10% chance of automatically forcing a duel, even if normally it would be declined. If declined, the opposing army has a (Attacker’s Int + Attacker’s Cha)/5% chance of reducing the defender’s army morale by 3.
- Level II: Officer has an (Attacker's Cha - Defender's Jud) + (Attacker's Might - Defender's Might)+20% chance of automatically forcing a duel, even if normally it would be declined. If declined, the opposing army has a (Attacker’s Int + Attacker’s Cha)/5% chance of reducing the defender’s army morale by 5.
- Level III: Officer has an (Attacker's Cha - Defender's Jud) + (Attacker's Might - Defender's Might)+30% chance of automatically forcing a duel, even if normally it would be declined. If declined, the opposing army has a (Attacker’s Int + Attacker’s Cha)/5% chance of reducing the defender’s army morale by 7.

What is the chance of a good leader, smart bloke, but crappy duelist aka 10 or 20 war being sucked into such a thing on this? If it is high then it should involve int as a detriment to accepting a duel. One can blabber out insults left and right but the intelligent can see them for who they truely are.

Engineer: Officer is skilled at construction of all kinds, enabling them to build larger structures than usual, as well as repairing defenses efficiently during battle.
- Level I: Regenerates (Int/3) defense to the nearby gates every round. Number cannot go above the cities initial defense. Officer receives a +10% bonus to developing City Defense. Officer may also construct the larger scale structures.(See Buildings and Structures Chapter
- Level II: Regenerates (Int/2.5) defense to the nearby gates every round. Number cannot go above the cities initial defense. Officer receives a +20% bonus to developing City Defense. Officer may also construct the larger scale structures.(See Buildings and Structures Chapter)
- Level III: Regenerates (Int/2) defense to the nearby gates every round. Number cannot go above the cities initial defense. Officer receives a +30% bonus to developing City Defense. Officer may also construct the larger scale structures.(See Buildings and Structures Chapter)

Level 3 gives it +50 to gates every round. Not knowing the strength of gates is that lot?

Field Advisor: The officer is skilled at tracking and analyzing battlefield intelligence.
- Level I: Grants an (int/7)% bonus to defend against Cajole, Confuse, Delay, Flood, Jeer, Lure, Muddle, Raze, Rockslide and Taunt.
- Level II: Grants a (int/4)% bonus to defend against Cajole, Confuse, Delay, Flood, Jeer, Lure, Muddle, Raze, Rockslide and Taunt.
- Level III: Grants a (int/2)% bonus to defend against Cajole, Confuse, Delay, Flood, Jeer, Lure, Muddle, Raze, Rockslide and Taunt. If the result will be beneficial, it also provides a 10% chance of turning the attempt back upon the attacker.

Only 10% for a reverse? If they have a int/2 of stopping it then it should be a 20 or 30% chance of returning it back on them. If they know how to stop it then they should have a good chance of returning the favor. Or I'd give 10% to level 1, 20% to level 2, and 30% to level 3. Zhuge Liang was famed for turning people's tactics against them. Meng Huo and Zhou Yu are two who fell to his foresight. Guo Jia was another one. Sorry but I don't know Qin enough to bring forward Qin examples.

Thats all I have for now.

[Xiang Zhuang]

Thanks SZM for evaluating some of this. I know that it is hard to quite understand what is going on, since we have but fractured parts of things publicly. One part we are lacking would be the battle rules. With this, these skills make a bit more sense. Since that isn't posted, I'm going to describe how these skills actually are used in battle.

The battles are going to be a standard 10 rounds. All tactics are auto-fire; that is, you just have one 'equipped' and it goes off. I will post you a copy of the trial battle run that Kymvir did for me when I wasn't quite understanding it. But basically the success rate of the skills are rolled for in every round. If the stats and skills for the Barrage ploy determine that you have a 50% chance of using it, that means that, in a 10 round battle, you should expect to use it 5 times. Or rather, say you are engaged with another unit for 4 rounds. The odds would dictate that you would use the Barrage ploy in 2 of the 4.

Here's the copy of the mock battle Kymvir ran. It was done before the skills were done, so keep that in mind, as many of the skill descriptions are not accurate there.

Alright, I think it might be most clear if I provide a sample battle. Two armies meeting on a small flat plain.

Han Grand Army
Has Bowmen(number unimportant)
Commander: Liu Bang
Battle Ploy: Barrage II
Movement Ploy: Jeer I(Primary target: Xiang Yu)

Subcommander: Peng Yue
Battle Ploy: Archer Commander
Movement Ploy: Jeer I(Primary target: Xiang Yu)

Subcommander: Xiao He
Battle Ploy: Barrage I
Movement Ploy: Rally I



Han Vanguard
Has Cavalry(number unimportant)
Commander: Han Xin
Battle Ploy: Confuse II
Movement Ploy: Dash II

SubCommander: Guan Ying
Battle Ploy: Cavalry Commander III
Movement Ploy: Scout II


vs.


Chu Grand Army
Has Infantry(number unimportant)
Commander: Xiang Yu
Battle Ploy: Onslaught III
Movement Ploy: Ambush I

Subcommander: Fan Zeng
Battle Ploy: Sortie I
Movement Ploy: Ambush I

Subcommander: Long Ju
Battle Ploy: Infantry Commander I
Movement Ploy: Inspire III


Description of Ploys being used:

Ambush I: When an army attempts to go into ambush, this improves chance that ambush is set, and reduces chance of being found out.

Archer Commander: Changes regualar ranged bow, or crossbow attacks to ranged fire attacks which have a chance of causing fire. (Archer Commander II would allow Catapults to fire fire attacks, and have a higher chance of starting a fire)

Barrage I: During a ranged attack, chance that damage is increased by 20%
Barrage II: During a ranged attack, chance that damage is increased by 35%

Cavalry Commander III: Regular mounted attacks are changed to coordinated charges that decrease morale of enemy by 6

Confuse II: During a regular attack, commander has a chance to confuse the enemy.(Chance increases or decreases for Confuse I or III)

Dash II: During movement, unit moves 30% faster than normal.(Dash I is 15%, Dash III is 45%)

Infantry Commander I: Commanders with this skill can direct Infantry units to set up a defensive wall when attacked, reducing damage received by 15%.

Inspire III: Unit receives a initiative bonus of 12.(8 for Inspire II, 4 for Inspire I)

Jeer I: Provides chance that Jeer reduces enemy morale. Jeer I only effects one unit. Targets must be designated.(Jeer II would hit two units, and have a slightly higher chance of success, etc.)

Onslaught III: During a cavalry attack, chance that damage is increased by 30%. If extra damage is rolled, there is an additional chance of target falling into confusion/panic.

Rally I: Every turn, there is a chance the unit may recover morale.(Chance improves with skill improvement)

Scout II: Increases units chance of finding traps and ambush. Reduces movement cost in forests. (Scout II improves chances, and reduces movement cost in Forests and hills. III improves chance more, and includes mountains)

Sortie I: During a cavalry attack, chance that damage is increased by 20%.(Sortie II 35%, Sortie III 50%)


Description of Actions:

Attack: Regular unit melee attack.
Ranged Attack: Regular ranged attack.
Ambush: Unit has to have successfully entered into ambush. When an enemy unit approaches, the unit attempts an Ambush which deals 50% damage, has a chance to cause confusion, and stops the unit caught in ambush from performing any attack of their own. Even if discovered, an ambush still delivers a regular attack, unless the chance of success is below 0, in which case the ambush fails utterly and no regular attack is delivered.


Battle:

Round 1:
Long Ju's Inspiration III boosts Xiang Yu's army initiative to go before Han Xin's. The army advances to the middle of the field and takes the action of setting ambush. Xiang Yu and Fan Zeng take advantage of their Ambush I skills and locate a low rise they can hide their troops in ambush behind.(20% regular Chance on plains, +20% for each skill. 33 rolled, Setting Ambush succeeds!)

Han Xin's force, dashing forward under Han Xin's guidance, moves south looking for the enemy and run smack into the Ambush. (Chance of Ambush Execution is 50% + 20% for each Set Ambush skill. -35% for scouting. 55% total. 92 roll, Ambush fails!) Guan Ying spots the ambush and alerts Han Xin, so they are braced for the attacking infantry of Xiang Yu. Xiang Yu deals regular damage to Han Xin. Han Xin counters. Since the ambush failed, Han Xin gets to attack normally, but Guan Ying's Cavalry Commander is not used because he already used his Scout skill to detect the ambush. Han Xin also cannot use his confusion ploy, because Dash was activated while he moved to the battle. Xiang Yu counters.

Liu Bang advances, but his archers are slow, and cannot get into range. Both Liu Bang and Peng Yue jeer at Xiang Yu.(Two chances at some number. Both fail.) Xiao He rallies, and succeeds, increasing the morale back to 100.(Morale had fallen while moving)

Round2:

Long Ju's Inspiration is no longer in effect, as he is in battle, so Han Xin goes before Xiang Yu.

Han Xin attacks Xiang Yu, and Guan Ying's Cavalry Commander deals -6 to Xiang Yu's morale. The attack only deals 90% of normal damage, due to Long Ju's Infantry Commander skill. Han Xin also attempts to spread confusion, and again fails. Xiang Yu counters.

Xiang Yu attacks Han Xin. Xiang Yu's Onslaught III and Fan Zeng's Sortie I are both rolled for success, and both succeed. Modifiers are added, so attack does 150% of normal(+30% onslaught III, 20% Sortie I), and there is a chance of confusion. Han Xin proves unable to keep his unit under control and the onslaught drives his men into confusion. He is unable to counter due to the confusion.

Liu Bang advances, and unleashes a ranged attack at Xiang Yu. Liu Bang's Barrage II, Xiao He's Barrage I, and Peng Yue's Archer Commander skills are all taken into account, making the attack have a chance to get a 35% modifier, a 20% modifier, and set the attacked unit on fire. Only Liu Bang's Barrage II succeeds, so the ranged attack does 135% of normal damage. Xiang Yu, being infantry, cannot counter.



I can continue this if it will help. At least, I hope this helps.

I hope this helps as well

Now I'll address your specific concerns. The 90% for Aid III might be a bit high, especially if people have stats over 100, which is possible (there is a soft cap of 120 for any individual stat). Dousing fires is fine with me for that, of course. I don't think our definitions of Confusion and Panic are well-set yet, except that the save roll for Confusion is based on Judgement, and the save roll for Panic is based on Command, although the save roll for Panic is harder, because it is a more severe condition. I based this on what RTK 8 uses, or what RTK 9 might refer to as 'routed'. I'm not sure at the moment, but thanks for pointing it out.

With Barrage III, actually, your calculation is wrong. With 100 Judgement, there is a 43% chance of success (100/3 = 33 + 10 = 43). That might actually be a bit lower than what I was thinking. I haven't spent the time myself to go over these skills all that well (Kymvir rewrote most of them after I created a smaller template for them), so this might be an issue. 80 Judgement is probably enough to expect out of someone, so I guess that would be a 36% chance. Still seems a bit low. Kymvir, what do you think?

For Challenge, I think I see a mistake in the formula. Right now, the way it stands, the difference between the Might of the challenger and the Might of the challenged seems backwards. The greater the Might difference in favor of the challenger, the greater chance the challenged will accept. Those values should be reversed, and I believe Kymvir would agree on that. The base formula should be like this then: (Attacker's Cha - Defender's Jud) + (Defender's Might - Attacker's Might)+10%.

With that said, the basic ploy operates off of the Charisma of the attacker, along with the level of the Challenge skill. That value is subtracted from the Judgement stat of the defender. Then, the difference between the Might of the two individuals is taken into account. In regards to what you said, Shi, a guy with 10 or 20 Might is essentially impossible to get to accept to a duel unless the guy challenging them is 10 or 20 Might. Even then, the person challenging with that sucky Might could have their duel accepted by someone else within the defender's unit.

Intellect and Judgement are two sides of the same coin. Intellect is more offensive, Judgement is more defensive. Judgement is, essentially, a person's common sense. Someone does not have to be a genius to know better than to accept a duel. That argument is part of the reason why we have the split between Int and Jud. For most battle stuff, Jud is used by the defender to react to things, and Int is used by the attacker to cause things. What you said has reminded me that we need to list exactly what each stat is somewhere (because I don't think it is public at the moment).

The standard maximum gate defense is 1000, upgradable to 1500 in some cities. So 50 really isn't a lot. The exact average number of damage expected to be done to a gate... I can't give you, because I haven't been running tests for gate damage. This is something I will get to, though, and if that number needs to be changed, it will.

Field Advisor is a bit of a tricky thing. It grants that bonus directly to the formula being rolled for the skill to succeed. The Level III version actually might be overpowered, now that I look at it, because a -50% success rate to any skill being used is tremendous. I am personally against Reverse-type skills, because their mere presence will detract someone from ever using something on them. I'm fine with 10% because it makes it seem like it will only happen in very rare cases. The -50% does seem high, though, and I am curious to know if Kymvir and I are on the same page with this. I was thinking it'd be subtracted directly from the success rate of the person trying to use the skill, but with the numbers up there, it makes me think that maybe it's more just a roll done afterward if the attacker's skill was successful to negate it's efforts. So, Kymvir, help?

Again, thanks. This helps a lot.

[Kymvir Raemiz]

Aid: I think 90% for Aid III actually sounds about right. My reasoning: An officer will have to be giving up the one tactic they can use that round to have Aid ready just in case something bad happens. Considering an officer only gets ONE conditional ploy in their tactics, this can be something they might not want to spend it on.

What I mean:

Our tactics will limit an officer to three tactics:

Standard Battle Ploy:
Standard Movement Ploy:
Conditional Ploy:

The first two are self-explanatory. The third is a ploy that will only be used should a described condition exist. Each officer will only be able to respond to ONE condition. So, if you have Dash, Scout and Aid, you have to decide. Do you want that officer ready to switch to Scout should someone on the field go to ambush, or do you want to have Aid in that slot in case someone gets confused. Or do you want to be able to activate Dash should you have to flee?

Barrage: I think 36% is perfect. If the officer fails, they still do standard damage. If they succeed, 50% will boost the standard attack of 2000 to 3000. That's actually really huge. I don't want to increase the number and have the person getting it every other turn. I was using 80 as a baseline for all of these skills, and having it work every 3rd turn sounded just right.

Yeah, challenge is screwy.

Gate Defense: The way I looked at it, we want people to probably be able to batter down a fully 1000 point gate, provided they are using good seige equipment,in about 3-4 rounds. That means two units equipped with ranks will deal about 300 damage a pop. Two units on the inside repairing will reinforce for 100 a turn. That'll slow breaking in by a couple rounds. In an early battle, they'll probably only be able to do about 150-200 a turn, and the defenders may have one person repairing. So, they'll slow it down some. I had a hard time figuring out the numbers though. If anything, 50 may be too small for Level 3.

Field Advisor is messed up. That number is way too high, and I'm not sure why I did that. It should never grant more than a -20% chance to success, because most of the chances to succeed sit at around 15-20%. Yes, that sounds like a crappy chance to succeed, but our ploys are attempted automatically every round, as long as the enemy is within range. No TP. Yay.

[ann]

I just want to point out that there is a thread for public comment on the rules

[Xiang Zhuang]

I was going to point that out when I was replying to SZM, but I forgot somewhere along the way

[Xiang Zhuang]

While I haven't got a reply from Kymvir yet about this, I am curious to see what those not-in-staff think about a GMNPC like this:

Peng Yue - 93-89-82-73-61 Administrator I, Aid I, Ambush III, Confuse III, Dash II, Duelist, Jeer I, Maneuver II, Raid II, Raze I, Scout II, Spy I

The stats are Command, Might, Intellect, Judgement, and Charisma, in that order. He will definitely be one of the top 10 NPC's in the game, and will be a GMNPC. Is he too good, though? He has at least 17 SP worth of skills (not counting the level 3 part, which players can't start out with), and his stats are probably 20 points or so higher than a player can get at sign-up.

[Georgie]

While I haven't got a reply from Kymvir yet about this, I am curious to see what those not-in-staff think about a GMNPC like this:

Peng Yue - 93-89-82-73-61 Administrator I, Aid I, Ambush III, Confuse III, Dash II, Duelist, Jeer I, Maneuver II, Raid II, Raze I, Scout II, Spy I

I don't know who he is or anything about the history. But heroes are heroes.

I should think it depends on when the Simdate is - has he already been in action for a while now? How close is he to his peak? If he's past or before his prime, lower your stats respectively by how much you think so - if he's completely green, knock off four points from everything and lower his tier-three skill ranks to tier-two. (And possibly ranks for anything else he did repeatedly to become a hero.)

When establishing an NPC's stats, I like to think of them in relation to their prime and keep in mind they gained experience as time went by just like everyone else.

[Xiang Zhuang]

He did pretty well for himself. Ended up King of Wei until Liu Bang did his thing and had him removed.

In regards to the simdate thing, I am kinda against that. While I can't recall if we came to a complete agreement on this, it is my desire that GMNPC's cannot keep track of experience. Because of that, if we make their stats to the starting date of the sim, they won't be as good, and won't have any chance to get better.

Unlike the RTK timeperiod, the entire conflict from the fall of the Qin to the creation of the Han lasted less than 10 years. Now that I've said that, I think it'd just be a bother to try and assign stats to the time period. Of course, if we were going to allow GMNPC's to do PT's and keep track of XP, it'd be a different story.

Basically, what I was looking for was to see if he is too good. The average PC will have at least 30 statpoints less than him and 7 SP worth of skills. Just saying that makes me think that I should reconsider both stats and skills, but especially stats. It's my desire that, while a few GMNPC's will be heads above PC's, that the number be kept to an absolute minimum, and then that they aren't completely irreplaceable. I think that I need to knock this guy's stats a little and remove a skill level or two.

[Shi Zhi Mi]

I personally don't see anything wrong with him. In a year or two game time a player should surpass him and then some. He is fine the way he is imo.

[Xiang Zhuang]

I guess I am forgetting to factor in a few things here, like items. The idea is that rulers won't have a plethora of money to throw around for items (except at the expense of their force), so GMNPC's and NPC's themselves won't probably get a lot of items.

I still might change it a bit, but I'll worry about that later I guess. More important now to get experience down so we know how fast PC's can progress.